Wednesday, June 5, 2013

Bad News! --Vatican spokesman--Rev. Thomas Rosica, C.S.B


This interview above by Fr, Rosica is a white wash of heresy and never mentions the evilness of Baum


The modernists are still in the Church but the Catholic mainstream media will not expose it, especially if it is in the Vatican. We at Catholic Vox wanted to stay focused on the doctrinal problems but in this case, we feel the need to expose the characters posing as loyal sons.

Rev. Thomas Rosica, is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He is media sauve and with high contacts in the Canadian Church. He has supported such lowlifes as ex-Fr. Gregory Baum. Baum was a "council periti" but was extremely left, and was excommunicated, left the priesthood and married a nun. He was Canada's most stanch and most influential opponents of Humanie Vite.

Wednesday, May 1, 2013

Limbo doctrinal cheat sheet



Here is a handy list of teachings related to Limbo (sorry no time for a full article this will have to do for now):

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442, de fide: “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil [original sin] and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people…” (Denz. 712)

Monday, April 29, 2013

Defense against Jim Blackburn

[Editor of Catholicvox-- We were listening to Catholic Answers Live and thought the answer to a question on EENS was mishandled. Writing to the staff Catholic Apologist at Catholic Answers, Jim Blackburn, we received an article he wrote on the subject as a response. We hope to help him see his understanding is not as strong as he may think. He seemed to be a man of good will, in our communications with him, so in the spirit of fraternal correction, we will attempt a rebuttal. His full article is printed below in brown, so we can't be accused of taking things out of context. Our response is in black with  documentation in blue with links to sources.---editor--Bill Strom]


What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means


One of the most misunderstood teachings of the Catholic Church is this one:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus).
Those trying to grasp the meaning of this teaching often struggle with its formulations by various Church Fathers and Church Councils down through history. Of course, to understand an isolated formulation of any Church teaching, one must study the historical context within which it was written: why it was written, what was going on in the Church at the time, who the intended audience was, and so on. One must discover how the magisterium (teaching office) of the Church understands its own teaching. If someone fails to do this and chooses, rather, to simply treat a particular formulation as a stand-alone teaching, he runs the risk of seriously misunderstanding it.
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Mr. Blackburn's  premise is misleading, although it isn't his per se--it is the meme around The Dogma.  We wonder, has  he really thoroughly researched the history and that of the EENSers' strict understanding of it? Thomas Aquinas said one should be thoroughly familiar with your opponents position. Is the strict understanding the original meaning or the now liberal one?  We think he may have used some articles by Fr. Most, and Fr. Sullivan's book on the subject. Thinking that that is enough. It isn't. Fr. Sullivan's book is refuted in a broad sense on this blog here in a 4 part essay "Taking Jesus as Lord and Savior".

Fr. Most has also been refuted  here on this blog. Fr. Most was caught in promoting falsehoods, even after corrected. He accused  Fr. Feeney of claiming one needs to be a registered member in a parish  to be saved, which Fr. Feeney never said or insinuated.

Mr. Blackburn also misunderstands the nature of dogmatic definitions. Definitions by their nature are to define what we believe. Some context is helpful but not necessary.  One doesn't interpret a definition, one either accepts it or rejects it.

Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #22:
“The dogmas which the Church professes as revealed are not truths fallen from heaven, but they are a kind of interpretation of religious facts, which the human mind by a laborious effort prepared for itself.”- Condemned [Denzinger 2022]

Even though Mr. Blackburns position is popular, this does not make it correct.

Tuesday, April 9, 2013

No Salvation Outside the Church and Invincible Ignorance

The quality isn't good but it gives a good explanation of how those who seek God find him. Those who do not want him will not find him

Monday, April 8, 2013

Forbidden text and Catholic samizdat: "Vatican II and the 'Bad News' of the Gospel"

[We at Catholicvox are republishing the "forbidden" text. We see how dangerous it is to tell the truth.]

Forbidden text and Catholic samizdat:
"Vatican II and the 'Bad News' of the Gospel"

It seems disagreeing with Rahner and von Balthasar may place a text in a warped anti-version of the Index Librorum Prohibitorum...
Considering this (Catholic World Report: "If you’re looking for the review, 'Vatican II and the ‘Bad News’ of the Gospel', it has been removed"); and this (Eerdmans: "We were thrilled to learn Monday that Catholic World Report had published a positive review of Ralph Martin’s book 'Will Many Be Saved? What Vatican II Actually Teaches and Its Implications for the New Evangelization.' Our delight turned to bewilderment, however ..."), we cannot help but post said text here. It is actually a text with a highly favorable reading of Vatican II, but some idolized third rails seem to have been touched.
And spread it around the web in samizdat mode, please, before we are perhaps kindly asked to remove the content.
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Vatican II and the “Bad News” of the Gospel


Ralph Martin’s new book clarifies what the Council actually taught about salvation outside the Church
David Paul Deavel
April 01, 2013
Ruefully observing statistics showing that only 6 percent of American Catholic parishes considered evangelism a priority, the late Cardinal Avery Dulles once lamented, “The Council has often been interpreted as if it had discouraged evangelization.” Ralph Martin’s new book, Will Many Be Saved? What Vatican II Actually Teaches and Its Implications for the New Evangelization, aims to explain why this interpretation has taken root despite the fact that the Council documents, particularly the keystone document Lumen Gentium (LG), are brimming with talk about evangelization as the Church’s main job. In fact, Paul VI’s encyclical Evangelii Nuntiandi stated that the objectives of the Council were summed up in one statement: “to make the Church of the 20th century ever better fitted for proclaiming the Gospel.” Yet the opposite happened.
Martin thinks, and with reason, that the loss of impetus to evangelize is based upon the widespread notion after the Council that almost everybody will be saved—except maybe really evil people like Hitler and Judas. Having the sacraments or an explicit faith in Christ is seen as a nice add-on. But essentially the theology of salvation could be summed up by the 1989 cartoon movie All Dogs Go to Heaven.
Of course this theology had backing from big names. Karl Rahner declared that the Council had a “theological optimism…concerning salvation.” Richard McBrien’s commentary on LG claimed that the Church now considered the human race as “an essentially saved community from whom a few may, by the exercise of their own free will, be lost.” Even the Jesuit scholar Francis Sullivan, author of a very careful study of the teaching on salvation outside the Church, tended in his more popular writings to throw caution to the wind and claim a “general presumption of innocence which is now the official attitude of the Catholic Church.” These claims were never undergirded by any actual citations or close readings from the Council, which marked a doctrinal development indeed, but not one of automatic salvation or “presumed innocence.”
While the question of the salvation of those who have never heard the Gospel has been bubbling up in a new way since the 16th-century discovery of peoples in the New World, it had been coming to a steady boil over more than 100 years before Vatican II. The categories of invincible ignorance (whereby one could not be held accountable for not knowing about Christ and the Christian message) and implicit faith (whereby the invincibly ignorant might embrace as much truth as God has allowed one to receive and thus embrace Christ implicitly) have been around for a while. That arch-traditional pope Pius IX had already given assent to the possibility of salvation outside the visible boundaries of the Church in encyclicals in 1854 and 1863. This view was even included in a draft document of the First Vatican Council (which was never finished because of the Franco-Prussian war’s interruption). The Second Vatican Council’s teaching of this possibility of salvation outside the sacraments and explicit faith, then, was the culmination of a long doctrinal development that had already been given expression by the papal Magisterium a century before Vatican II.
Martin affirms this development, noting that LG 16 very clearly indicates the possibility of salvation outside of the visible Church and explicit faith. That key passages states:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life. (LG 16)
Notice, however, that simple ignorance, even ignorance that could not be helped, is not a sufficient condition for salvation—sincere seeking of God, a real attempt to follow the dictates of conscience, and an embrace of whatever truth is given are all necessary. To such people “divine assistance” will be given. But notice also that the Council Fathers said that such people “may” achieve eternal salvation. But what is so striking is that even when this passage is quoted, the final lines which warn of the dangers to those outside of the faith are rarely quoted and even more rarely commented on at length:
But very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of all of these, the Church, mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature,” fosters the missions with care and attention. (LG 16)
Far from a human race that is presumed innocent or essentially saved, the Council Fathers see a world in which salvation is neither assured nor easy. It is a world in which, “very often,” rejection of Christ has been a reality, is still possible, and is a main reason for Christian missions. Indeed, the Council also warned about the severe judgment falling on Catholics who do not persist in charity and faithfulness.
The Council’s “optimism,” Martin rightly notes, is about the possibility of salvation outside of the Church, not the probability that everybody inside or outside it will be saved. The Council doesn’t give odds on this question or tell us whether hell is densely populated or not, nor does Martin attempt to do so. But he notes that the “very often” is attached to the negative possibility. In a chapter examining the scriptural references in LG 16 he demonstrates that this “bad news” is indeed biblical. Where, then, did the All Dogs view of the Council come from? Mostly from two sources: Karl Rahner and Hans Urs von Balthasar.
While Martin is clear that he respects both theologians and acknowledges their own pastoral desires, what is demonstrated in the two chapters covering their thoughts is how little backing they had in their own theories. Rahner, while occasionally acknowledging that the Council did not actually say anything new doctrinally on this topic, used the tactic that would later characterize the Bologna school: in Ratzinger’s words, the Council’s texts were interpreted as “a mere prelude to a still unattained conciliar spirit…” Thus, Rahner’s foundations for hope in universal or near-universal salvation were founded upon his own particular theological vision—a vision that gave little attention to the whole witness of either Scripture or Tradition on this point and (as he later acknowledged) underestimated the reality of sin.
While Rahner may have ignored Tradition and Scripture, Balthasar professed to be a man who paid attention to it all. Martin’s brief against him shows, however, that on his professed “theological hope” for universal salvation (best glimpsed in his book Dare We Hope That All Be Saved?), Balthasar has a tendency to ignore and occasionally mischaracterize his sources. Martin offers devastating critiques of Balthasar’s use of Scripture, the Fathers, and indeed logic. Balthasar quotes scriptural passages without even their immediate context, adduces witnesses who do not say what they purportedly say (e.g., Maximus the Confessor’s supposed embrace of universalism), and claims that one cannot love people sincerely if one believes that anyone could possibly reject God—the last a strange claim indeed given his view that the saints stand high as theological authorities. Finally, he seems to back up his positions with rather extravagant extra-biblical speculations about conversions in hell.
Balthasar and Rahner and many of their followers believed that the Church’s missions would be successful only if we could stop telling people the bad news. Whether or not they actually agreed with the speculative views of the theologians, many bishops and pastors embraced the idea that the Church would be better off if it stopped talking about sin and hell and accentuated the positive. As one theologian in 1973 wrote, with this strategy, “men will storm her doors seeking admission.” The result has been less than spectacular. Rare are the people who will spread the faith merely because the Church says so if there is no point to it other than drawing new members into “our community.” To paraphrase Flannery O’Connor, if the Church isn’t a place of salvation, it is simply an Elks Club. And the Elks aren’t doing that well these days either. It was Rahner, after all, whose talk about the “optimism of the Council” yielded at the end of his life to essays on the “winter of the Church.”
Martin does not spare bishops or popes in his criticism of this strategy of talking only about the positives. Paul VI’s and John Paul II’s encyclicals on evangelization, Evangelii Nuntiandi and Redemptoris Missio, are scored for omitting “the traditional focus on the eternal consequences that rest on accepting or rejecting the gospel that motivated almost two thousand years of mission.” Martin calls for an end to this “unwise silence” about a significant part of the Christian message. It is a particularly heartening sign that his book is blurbed by seven US bishops. Perhaps these endorsements are a sign that what Russell Shaw once called the US bishops’ “Potemkin Village” is now being torn down.
Martin’s one misstep is that he too quickly passes by the question of the danger to non-Catholic Christians. While Vatican II’s recognition of the power of salvation at work among other Christians separated from the Catholic Church is accurate, it is perhaps a little too pat. Martin does not mention the dangers to Christians whose baptisms are valid but who do not have the fullness of the sacraments or the guidance of the Magisterium to help them in a world in which, as he notes, the culture’s morality moves further from Christian teaching every day. The bad news is for all of us—Catholics, other Christians, and non-believers. We all need to hear it if the good news is to make sense. And we all need to hear it because it’s true.
About the Author: associate editor of Logos: A Journal of Catholic Thought and Culture and adjunct professor of Catholic Studies at the University of St. Thomas (Minnesota).


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Our thanks to Angelqueen for providing the full version of this forbidden text... (Tip: Pertinacious PapistCWR removes Deavel's review of Ralph Martin's book).(The book cover image comes from Eerdmans.)

Thursday, December 13, 2012

Vatican II and EENS

Many use Vatican II to say that non-Catholics can be saved. When we say non-Catholics we will limited it for now for the sake of argument to the non-sacramentally-baptized and/or without explicit Faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Let us look at the full paragraph of Vatican II :

Modernism & 50 Year Anniversary of Vatican II

Here is an interesting interview to listen to that gives some good insights. Although it is from SSPX I think it is worth listening to.
http://www.cfnews.org/page10/page71/interview_jv_vatican_ii1.htmle

We think it might be a little too negative about the Church politics but again worth listening to.

Wednesday, September 19, 2012

Will Many Be Saved? What Vatican II Actually Teaches and Its Implications for the New Evangelization

OK it isn't a perfect book but it is a step in the right direction. Ralph Martin has taken on Rahner's Anonymous Christian theory and Von Balthazar's "Dare We Hope" theory. He still has more to learn about the dogma EENS but I have said for a long time that Catholic  charismatics are more open to the idea of needing to take Jesus as Lord and Savior, which is the first step in the puzzle palace game of mirrors that has afflicted the dogma. So let's be patient and promote the good this book can do to opening up the dialog in educated circles.
http://www.amazon.com/Will-Many-Saved-Implications-Evangelization/dp/0802868878